Mac verses Windows Verses Linuk

Discussion in 'The War Zone' started by Net Jockey, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. Net Jockey

    Net Jockey Geek Trainee

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  2. sabashuali

    sabashuali Ani Ma'amin

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    I did not have the time to watch the whole thing but from what I watched.... I really do not understand why the hell are people using Linux...

    It is so blatantly obvious that it is inferior to Windows.......

    All this time I wasted on trying.... :doh:
     
  3. Anti-Trend

    Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek

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    I skipped to the end.

    "If you don't like Vista, you could always go Linux"
    "How's the security on Linux?"
    "Good!"
    (fin)

    Yeah, the security is good on Linux. Many things are good on Linux. Not to say Linux is perfect, but Vista sucks in just about every conceivable way and Mac OS is limited and proprietary. To me, Linux is the only option that even makes any sense. :)
     
  4. Fred

    Fred Moderator

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    Wow, Saba really turns on a dime in terms of loyalty doesn't he? And I'm not looking to make this a lengthy conversation, but man I just don't get it. I understand that some things in Windows are easier (*cough* including getting infected :) ), but I really can't express any further how much Linux fills my needs. I play games, surf the net, type papers, share files over my network. Everything is working great for me. Maybe you were doing it wrong? I don't get your sudden "Linux is teh sux" thing... :doh:
     
  5. Anti-Trend

    Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek

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    He was only being sarcastic I believe. :O He runs Debian I think.
     
  6. RHochstenbach

    RHochstenbach Administrator

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    That explains the sig :D:
     
  7. sabashuali

    sabashuali Ani Ma'amin

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    My sarcasm obviously went straight over your head.... hehe.
    Never mind.... no, as I already wrote a number of times, out of choice I would not use windows as I have no need to use it. What "bugged" me (as if I give a toss what geeky Canadians use) is that one of the fundamental arguments did not hit the agenda until more or less the end of the episode - security. Mind you, the episode was about Windows Vs Mac and not Windows Vs Mac Vs Linux.

    The point where I stopped watching - the analogy which saw Linux as your weekend, homemade, hot-rod project, sitting on blocks in your back yard with the carburetor waiting for a chance to be re-built. A car which could be brilliant if the user will actually get his finger out and stop tweaking. The penny dropped and I simply switched off.....

    As I said before (and I really only have AT to thank for this conclusion) - if you want to use Windows, may the force be with you. I know what makes me happy.... ;)
     
  8. Fred

    Fred Moderator

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    Yes, it would be safe to say it did... :-( Dang, I feel dumb now
     
  9. Net Jockey

    Net Jockey Geek Trainee

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    Hmmmm... I don't have a problem with that analogy... Linux keeps building (or is it rebuilding) one distro after another.
     
  10. Anti-Trend

    Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek

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    Well, I'm not trying to be mean or hostile. But to be honest with you, what you just said demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of what Linux and open source actually is. In fact, I would go so far as to say the two individuals in the video are at least partially responsible, apparently being largely ignorant of these matters themselves.

    "Linux" is the kernel of our open-source OS, just the very core part. It's named after a cross between the name of the original developer (Linus Torvalds) and the word "Unix", the OS design philosophy that Linux is based on. There is no "Linux" distribution, nor is "Linux" a company or a single group. To be fair, it would be more correct to call the OS "GNU" in a generic sense than "Linux", since Linux, while an extremely important part, is only one piece amongst a lot of open source software.

    Linux is the kernel of a GNU operating system. Every operating system has a kernel, not just GNU. To oversimplify things greatly, the kernel is the part of the OS that talks between the software you run and hardware you run it on. To put forward an orchestral metaphor, if the hardware were instruments and software musicians, the kernel would be the conductor. We only call the OS "Linux" for simplicity's sake, but it's actually no one entity, there are many groups (non-profit, corporate, and ma & pa, you name it) that have their own OS flavors that use Linux as a kernel. What they all have in common is that they use Linux as the kernel, and a lot of other open source software around it. Like the KDE and Gnome desktop environments, the Firefox web browser, etc. For more info, read up on GNU - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Linux kernel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So anyway, I hope you're getting what I'm alluding to here. You can't generalize "Linux", because it's not one central organization with one central goal. It's actually a whole lot of various open source software, including the Linux kernel itself, packaged together by various unrelated groups of people.

    Specific distributions are built very differently from one another. For example, Red Hat Enterprise Linux is built to stricter, more strenuous standards and tested for longer than most other OS'es on the planet, including OS X and any flavor of Windows you like. As a result, it's very corporate-feeling, very stable, and extremely reliable. It's also not a very fun desktop, since testing the packages for a long time means they're fairly old when it finally ships. This is perfectly fine on a server, but you wouldn't want a multimedia system running RHEL, I can tell you that.

    Then there's Debian, which is like the Swiss Army knife of Linux distros. It too is extremely well tested, almost to a fault. But there are 3 current branches of Debian that are supported at any given time: Stable (codenamed "Etch" at the moment), Testing (called "Lenny" currently), and Unstable (always codenamed "Sid", after the unstable kid in Toy Story). Stable is a lot like RHEL, in that it's not very exciting or cutting edge, but it's extremely well tested and predictable. Testing is the release candidate for the next stable build, so it's actually really reliable. Testing strikes a good balance between fresh and well grounded, meaning it makes an excellent general purpose desktop operating system, or multimedia box. Sid is for people who don't mind having their toys broken from time to time; it's where the major changes happen, and the kinks get worked out. It's fun, in a geeky way, but you probably wouldn't want it running on a production server. :) There's also two branches I didn't mention, namely "Old-Stable" and "Experimental". Old-stable is the stable version before the current one, and it's always supported for at least one year after the latest stable build is released. Experimental is so bleeding edge that it's usually completely untested, hence the name. This is where brand new software is introduced for induction into Debian, and like all others before it, it must run the gambit of testing and peer review before it will be shipped in a stable build. This means making it from Experimental to Sid, sid to Testing, and then being released with testing as a stable build. After which, it will get security updates for the lifespan of the stable build.

    Then there's Gentoo, a source-based distribution you build on the fly as you install it. Of the other distros I've mentioned thus far, Gentoo is the most like the metaphor these two wanna-be tech gurus alluded to in their video. It is for enthusiasts who are willing to get really down and dirty and touch every piece of software on the system to get everything "just so". Obviously this makes it somewhat impractical, and others in the larger open source community often jokingly refer to it as the "ricer OS". :chk:

    So you see, what type of presence Linux has on a computer is entirely up to which distro of Linux you choose to run. Since each is built and maintained by a different group of individuals with often very different goals in mind, their form and function will vary greatly. As for me, I have chosen a "best tool for the job" approach. My wife's and my desktops both run Debian "Lenny", which has been a fantastic desktop in our experience with it. My web server and file server both run CentOS Linux, a community repackage of the aforementioned Red Hat corporate distro. It's exactly RHEL, but free of charge, and with all the corporate logos removed. Then my firewall runs pfSense, a firewall distribution based on FreeBSD 7, another UNIX-like operating system. These things are all very similar under the hood, but each has different goals and intentions and they are highly specialized for what they do. This means they are also highly effective as compared to more proprietary, expensive and time-consuming solutions such as OS X or Windows.
     
  11. Net Jockey

    Net Jockey Geek Trainee

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    I am not quite as ignorant as your post may be attempting to point out.
    I am also somewhat surprised at the defensiveness demonstrated.

    I am also not interested in being mean or hostile.
    I actually saw that analogy as a positive thing for Linux...I thought it put Linux in a good light. A Hot Rod...In other words a high performance machine. That could be attractive to a certain part of society... I say a certain part simply because not all people want a Cadillac.

    Cheers.
     
  12. Anti-Trend

    Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek

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    I didn't mean to imply ignorance, though that may be unavoidable in the indirectly sense. What I'm getting at is that the terminology you conveyed your description of "Linux" in portrays a misunderstanding of what "Linux" really is. I don't think that says anything about you as a person, one way or the other. These "How stuff works" guys though would proclaim themselves as experts, thus drawing my harsh criticism of them specifically. From what I've seen of them so far, they are experts in the same sense that Best Buy's Geek Squad or Fry's Electronics employee is an expert (no offense, Fred).

    If I have given you the impression of defensiveness, than it is a misstep on my part. My intention was merely to inform and educate, hopefully in a friendly and relatively informal manner. I realize that I can come across quite strongly, especially without the luxury of inflection, as is the case of communications on forums like these. However, my personal feelings on the matter are actually quite tepid; I don't feel particularly strongly about it, it's just matter-of-fact for me. :) In other words, you won't get a jihad from me about disagreement on this topic any more than you would from disagreement about a math problem.

    I'm glad. :)

    What I'm saying is that Linux is neither a hot rod nor a cadillac, but more like a generic vehicle made from various combinations of readily available parts. To stretch the metaphor a bit further, the car companies that assemble and "sell" them will focus on and compete amongst themselves for specific parts of the "Market", e.g. some might be strong on reliability and another on fuel economy. Others might me so specialized that they really don't have any "seats" to speak of, only storage, like a freight truck. So along this train of thought, one variation might be a hot rod, sure. But another might be a Cadillac, another a hybrid, another a passenger bus, and still another a motorcycle. It all depends on how it was packaged and with which pieces.

    So, it is unfair and not very useful to compare "Windows" to "Linux" in such a generic way, unless you're talking about very low-level, technical aspects of the OS, which these two guys are certainly not. It's more relevant to compare, say, "Windows Vista Home Premium" and "Debian Lenny with the KDE 3.5.10 desktop".

    And to you. :)
     
  13. Net Jockey

    Net Jockey Geek Trainee

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    Well it was helpful to have that cleared up...But I still do not believe they were attempting to put Linux in a bad light...Misinformed maybe...but not malicious...Just somewhat short of perfection...like all of us.

    I am presently really questioning why I should experiment further with Linux...Which has been my intent.

    The reason is because my new rig is working so well...with XP Pro...that I am asking myself "do I need anything more"?

    Note: I am not trying to be confrontational at all...I am just letting you know where I am at...and I am open to discussion about it.
     
  14. Anti-Trend

    Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek

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    Right... but I wasn't insinuating that they were acting maliciously, merely that they are largely uninformed about Linux, and so they are in turn misinforming others in their lack of knowledge on the subject. The blind leading the blind, as it were.


    If you're asking me, I'd say that whether or not you experiment with Linux can depend on several factors.

    • How happy are you with your current OS?
    • How happy are you with your current level of knowledge?
    • Do you mind not knowing what your OS is doing, since it is closed-source?
    • Do you like paying for mandatory software upgrades?
    • Do you like managing software licenses?
    • Are you OK with your OS' current level of stability?
    • Does it matter to you how long your OS will run well before it needs a "tuneup"?
    • Do you mind managing multiple layers of anti-malware and security tools to keep your OS in a basic level of operation?
    • Is running the same OS as your neighbors important to you?
    • How often are you willing to reinstall your OS?
    • Does it bother you that a single corporation has more control over your computer than you do as its owner?
    • How much time are you willing to dedicate to learning something new?

    I was a Windows pro years ago who just plain got tired of dealing with Windows. When I started learning Linux, I was amazed at how much better the underlying technology is. Now, years later, I have actually changed my career path to work with Linux as an occupation, and as I mentioned, I run it everywhere. So, it's literally changed my life. Do you need anything more? I don't know, I guess that all depends on what you expect to get from your computing experience.

    I'm not either, so I'm glad we have that misunderstanding behind us. I'm only trying to be helpful, and in that aim I hope I've been successful. :)
     
  15. Net Jockey

    Net Jockey Geek Trainee

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    * How happy are you with your current OS?...Very happy.
    * How happy are you with your current level of knowledge?...Pleased that it has continued to grow over the last 24 years.
    * Do you mind not knowing what your OS is doing, since it is closed-source?...Not at all.
    * Do you like paying for mandatory software upgrades?...Have not had to do that...Please elaborate?
    * Do you like managing software licenses?...The only one I need to be concerned about is the OS.
    * Are you OK with your OS' current level of stability?...Definitely...It's never been this good.
    * Does it matter to you how long your OS will run well before it needs a "tuneup"?...I don't mind some maintenance.
    * Do you mind managing multiple layers of anti-malware and security tools to keep your OS in a basic level of operation?...Not at all.
    * Is running the same OS as your neighbors important to you?...Most of my neighbors are using Vista...I use XP.
    * How often are you willing to reinstall your OS?...As little as posible.
    * Does it bother you that a single corporation has more control over your computer than you do as its owner?...I don't think they they do.
    * How much time are you willing to dedicate to learning something new?...Again constanly for the last 24 years.

    After having responded to your questions...I want you to know that I have never had as much respect for anyone that I have encountered on the net...than I have for your ability to work like you do when you communicate like you have in this thread.

    The way I am feeling right now is that there is a possibly that I will try Linux again...but if it happens it will be strictly out of curiosity...and it will be the distro you are using...and I will need your help...If you happen to be available when I get there?
     
  16. Anti-Trend

    Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek

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    Several times in the past, Microsoft has charged for what is essentially a bugfix release. Namely, 95b, 98SE, and the recent timezone fix for NT which costs $5,000. But more specifically, I was referring to the way Microsoft corrals its users into upgrading to the latest versions of software to maintain compatibility. For example, MS Office not maintaining backwards compatibility with itself.

    I spent years perfecting my ability to restore a working backup or disc image in the quickest and most efficient way possible. After I moved to Linux, I haven't had to even consider such a situation.

    They do. Microsoft can disable your OS through the update facility. If there is other control they hold over it I don't know; communication between MS and their update servers is encrypted, and we don't have access to the source code.

    The POSIX UNIX architecture is definately something new to a DOS/Windows guy, take it from me. If you like to learn, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Unlike DOS/Windows, UNIX was designed by computer scientists from the ground up. So the conventions it uses are wildly different from the DOS world, in a good way. In other words the conventions aren't arbitrary, they are actually logical.

    Thanks for your kind words, and again, sorry for coming across as otherwise earlier. I am still working on my communication skills, and doing so online has always been a big challenge for me.


    Of course my help is here if you need it, and I'm sure I can speak for several other regulars as well. As for the distro I run, it's Debian "Lenny", the release candidate for the next stable build. It's been a great OS, fast and stable. Can't complain, especially for the price. :) You can see screenshots in my signature.
     
  17. Net Jockey

    Net Jockey Geek Trainee

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    Thanks...
     
  18. Anti-Trend

    Anti-Trend Nonconformist Geek

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    Open office is the solution to that one.[/QUOTE]Open Office... being open source software that ships with most Linux distros as the default office suite. ;)

    I partition a large hard drive...and store the stuff I want to keep on the partitions...that don't have the operating system on them...So reinstalling the OS is not that big of an issue for me.[/QUOTE]Backing up user data was never a problem for me, but installed software is a different issue entirely. Due to Microsoft's use of the Windows registry, it's not so simple to archive installed software in the same manner, nor to restore it to a working state after a recovery.

    Microsoft will do that once they find out you have pirated copy of their software installed...But they will not do that without a legit cause.[/QUOTE]That's a lot of trust to have in a company that's motivated purely by profit, especially in one that has proven itself to be so untrustworthy in the past. My point was that they have control of your machine. It's almost like they own it, even though you paid for it. That may be perfectly OK with you, or maybe you just never thought about it, I don't know. But it always bothered the hell out of me.

    I never did learn DOS.[/QUOTE]DOS used to be called "QDOS", for "Quick and Dirty Operating System". Bill Gates bought it from a local programmer, repackaged it as "MSDOS" (Microsoft Disk Operating System), and sold it to IBM. That's how MS got rolling in the first place. Since QDOS was designed literally out of somebody's garage as a hobbyist OS to run on IBM's new x86 platform, it was never intended for production use. Therefore, it wasn't designed to be future proof either. Every version of Windows from the first release until now has been based on concepts (though not necessarily on code) from DOS. In that sense, you have been a DOS user all along. As for me, I'd run MS products from DOS 2.0 all the way up to Windows XP, so I think I can make the DOS/Windows connection with some confidence. :)
     
  19. sabashuali

    sabashuali Ani Ma'amin

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    Once I was scalded good and proper by AT, after making a similar mistake :D , I did a hell of a lot of experimenting and funny enough ended with a similar flow chart dicision making...

    • How happy are you with your current OS? Not at all
    • How happy are you with your current level of knowledge? Not at all
    • Do you mind not knowing what your OS is doing, since it is closed-source? Not at all
    • Do you like paying for mandatory software upgrades? Not at all
    • Do you like managing software licenses? Not at all
    • Are you OK with your OS' current level of stability? Not at all
    • Does it matter to you how long your OS will run well before it needs a "tuneup"? Absolutely
    • Do you mind managing multiple layers of anti-malware and security tools to keep your OS in a basic level of operation? Absolutely
    • Is running the same OS as your neighbors important to you? Not at all
    • How often are you willing to reinstall your OS? I love re-installing anything but I wand to make that decision
    • Does it bother you that a single corporation has more control over your computer than you do as its owner? Could not care less. It is the consumers who brought this about. If the piper of MS Hamelin did not play such a sweet tune we would have all woken up a lot earlier...
    • How much time are you willing to dedicate to learning something new? I do every day. However, I prefer things to happen without this exercise...
    • Are you happy with how your OS handles unstable and/or legacy hardware (I added this one up myself....) - Not at all

    All-in-all I found out that for me, Windows does not offer ANY advantages what so ever. Linux is free, works out of the box and instantly secure so WTF should I bother?

    hehe.... Fred still fell for it though..... only joking.

    [ot]Where is Donkey? the newly converted apprentice?[/ot]
     
  20. RHochstenbach

    RHochstenbach Administrator

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    * How happy are you with your current OS? Very happy
    * How happy are you with your current level of knowledge? very happy, but is not needed with my OS. You don't need to have a Master degree in Computer Science to operate it
    * Do you mind not knowing what your OS is doing, since it is closed-source? I don't care, because evey movement and phone call is also monitored by some agencies
    * Do you like paying for mandatory software upgrades? nope
    * Do you like managing software licenses? I don't use any licensing stuff at home
    * Are you OK with your OS' current level of stability? couldn't be more satisfied with my OS
    * Does it matter to you how long your OS will run well before it needs a "tuneup"? My OS doesn't slow down over time
    * Do you mind managing multiple layers of anti-malware and security tools to keep your OS in a basic level of operation? There is no malware written for my OS
    * Is running the same OS as your neighbors important to you? my neighbors don't have a computer
    * How often are you willing to reinstall your OS? Don't care. Using Time machine to restore my data after a reinstall
    * Does it bother you that a single corporation has more control over your computer than you do as its owner? As long as it keeps functioning properly, I don't really care
    * How much time are you willing to dedicate to learning something new?My entire life, cause I like to learn new stuff
    [ot]I know that this is a questionnaire for Windows users, but I just like to join :)[/ot]
     

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