Upgrading big

E

emojeff

Geek Trainee
Hello. I recently tried to install Vista and went through a huge discussion with Microsoft on how to fix it and such, about 8 hours together. We finally figured out it was the chipset. So I was kinda wondering on upgrading my computer, and I did some research. I actually wanted to upgrade it for a while, for DX10, I would need PCI-E and new graphic card. So I figured out I needed to replace my Motherboard + CPU + RAM + GFX Card. I found these products on frys and compusa, but I dont know if they will all work together. Right now, I have an alienware I got about 3 years ago. Heres some current hardware stuff I have..

3.00Ghz Pent4 w/ HT (I believe its overclocked a little because it said 2.8 on the order form)
3GB Ram, 4 sticks. 2x alienware low latency 512MB, and 2 from corsair.
ATI x1650 Raedon AGP Pro - 512MB
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe for motherboard

I think thats about all the info that will be required. Alright so... lets see.. here are the links I found on some sites,
FRYS.com | PQI

FRYS.com | Intel

FRYS.com | Asus

Buy the EVGA e-GeForce 8800 GTS Superclocked Video Card (320P2N815DX) and other Computer Video Cards and Adapters at circuitcity.com

I don't really know much about putting it together, so I am probably gonna end up buying all that stuff and take the whole computer to Frys or somewhere and have them fix it, anyone know how much that might cost btw? At least.. just the MB and processor and maybe install vista for me just so I dont have to mess around with it, if they do it for free at least lol. So anyways do you guys think that will be good? Im trying to save up for the money right now... and eventually Ill get them all, just wondering if they will work together lol.

I was also wondering... when I get the new motherboard, will there be a new BIOS? If I give it to frys to install for me, will they do the real BIOS and not that shit that locks up your BIOS settings? Because I want to overclock that CPU, which brings me to my other question. If I wanted to overclock that CPU, do you think I am going to need more fans or heatsinks? If so, tell me some info about that please, thanks.
 
Unless you've got a really good power supply, you probably should factor in one for your purchase. The 8800's are pretty big power monsters. The Corsair HX520 or HX620 power supplies have been getting a lot of praise in regards to running the 8800GTX in SLI.

Like most system builders, Alienware usually has a limited BIOS setting on motherboards designed specifically for their systems. The main reason for keeping overclocking settings off the table is to prevent people that don't know what they're doing and shouldn't be screwing around in BIOS from doing so. A shop or retailer like Fry's isn't going to mess with your BIOS as that's not what they've set up their business as, so whatever the motherboard ships with will be what you have.

If you're in the UK (as per the flag, and I believe the UK is the default country when you register), I'm not sure Fry's is available.

I don't know what Fry's charges, but they'll have their prices listed. If they're anything like Best Buy, I'd expect that you'll probably pay at least $200-300 for them to do the work and install Vista. You might want to check out some local shops as well and see what they're asking for the services. I really wouldn't count on anything free.

As far as parts go, that's all compatible.
 
Well right now I have a power supply from Alienware, this is what it says on the order sheet in the email...

Power Supply: Alienware® 480 Watt Power Supply

If I get all that stuff with the card, would it just not turn on because its too low or something? And all the GFX I want is the 360mb, GTS one, GTX is too expensive for now.

As for the Frys, I do live in the US, I didn't know about the flag thingy, but one of my friends said its actually very simple + the manual helps alot, so I might try it myself first.

Do you think the motherboard's chipset is compatible with Vista though? I dont want to buy all this and then not be able to have vista, I already wasted 160$ on the Home Premium upgrade for Vista.

And I dont think I am going to overclock because the dual2core already is alot better than the Pentium 4 I have right now right? Even though its 2.13ghz the cache owns it right?

Thanks alot.
 
Given how new it is, there should be drivers for it. The chipset has been around since about late last year/early this one. The older motherboard uses the Intel i875P chipset, which is a few years old, but I doubt it's unsupported. I'm not sure how you determined the chipset is at fault right now. I have heard that the Vista upgrade is more buggy than a clean install---which involves formatting the hard drive. You can perform a clean install of Vista with an upgrade disc. The upgrade only differs from the full version in that it does a check for a previous version of Windows by detecting it on the hard drive or by being fed the installation disc of the older OS. The motherboard you're looking at uses the nForce 570. The biggest issue is going to lie more with nVidia's driver support than Vista. Understand that Vista is a very new OS, and very new hardware won't be automatically detected

Too low of power can manifest itself by the inability to power the system on. However, you also can run into problems with stability. A third reason would deal with the newer 24-pin ATX connector that new motherboards have and the 6-pin native PCIe power connectors that high-end video cards use for extra juice. I don't know what Alienware is rebadging as their own PSU's, but I'd at least budget out for a new one. It probably wouldn't hurt to try the Alienware unit, but just don't be dead-set on counting it working. Like I said, the 8800's are pretty power hungry. 480W isn't a bad wattage, but that wattage is a reflection of the +3.3V, +5V, +12V and occasionally a -5V, and -12V (mostly for older devices). SATA hard drives, CPUs and PCIe cards, including the powerful video cards, run off the +12V line. Yes, the two biggest power hogs run off the same voltage line. It won't matter if the other's provide sufficient juice when that's not where the power is being drawn from.

The Core 2 design is entirely different than the Pentium 4. The Pentium 4 (and Pentium D) were based on the NetBurst architecture, which was designed to scale high clock speeds. Unfortunately, AMD came out with the Athlon and Athlon64 which were able to go toe-to-toe with Intel's best and keep up or beat Intel, despite a much slower clock speed. AMD went with a plan that had them doing more work per clock cycle. With the Core 2 design, Intel encompasses that same idea, with their own special tricks. The cache is part of it. It has one set of L2 cache that both cores are able to use a percentage of as needed. Past dual-core designs had an L2 cache for each core. Core 2's L2 cache setup allows a core to use the entire L2 cache if needed instead of being stymied by half the available cache being off-limits. However, a lot of Core 2 is due to a more efficient design.

The flag here just represents your nation. It's displayed on the lower left-hand corner of your post, underneath your registered name. We're a multi-national forum, so the flags help in some instances...mostly like this.

Installing parts isn't that difficult if you can read and follow directions and have a rudimentary mechanical inclination. If you see one put together or have help, I think you'll see it's not quite as tough as you think it is.
 
I just called up the place where I bought my current ATI x1650 Pro 512MB card, and they said there is only a 15-day policy, I thought it was 90, but I was thinking of Bestbuy I guess. Anyways, now I am short on money lol. I can only get about 400$, maybe 450, max 500. So I was kind of wondering if I should get this combination:

Newegg.com - ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA LGA 775 VIA PT880 Ultra ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

And wait for a new DX10 AGP/PCI-E card to come out thats cheaper than the 8800's out right now. This way, I can also keep my RAM, since its DDR400 supported on that motherboard.

But the thing is that some reviews on that motherboard are saying totally different things. Plus its only 2GB ram supported. I cant really make up my mind. What should I do? Should I chose a better motherboard with just AGP? Would there ever be a new DX10 AGP video card? If so, can you find me a good, but maybe around 100$ motherboard with AGP slot only, but better quality than the AGP/PCI one I chose? Maybe a good motherboard wouldnt be around 100$, so maybe find one for around 200$ but then I can get the 2.13ghz dual 2 core which only costs 218$ on newegg.com, if you think thats better. What ever you think I can get with a 500$ budget right now. My goal is to have a really good computer for when DX10 games like Halo3 and InCrysis come out.

And I really didn't understand the power supply stuff. But do you think its just the 8800? Will the newer cards that come out for DX10, AGP or PCI, will also have a really high power requirement?

Also, is there any website that has any information on any cards that are coming out with DX10, AGP/PCI-E, either of them? I might just buy most of the upgrades for my computer, then when I get money, hopefully the GFX cards will come and I can then get one of those for cheaper than the 8800's.

Or maybe I should just go PCI-E whenever I get enough money for all of it.. the MB/RAM/GFX/PowerSupply/CPU.. but I dont know im so confused lol.

Also, I have been having some issues with my graphic card lately, the ATI x1650PRO 512MB AGP one. I tried to overclock it for fun, which I want to jump out the window for right now, and I screwed it up. At the beginning, I believe it was supposed to be 600MHZ core clock and 400MHZ memory clock, as in the original, non-clocked, version. I think when I used rivatuner or ATI tools, it started screwing up, I was increasing it by 10MHZ and trying this game called counter-strike. Eventually I gave up and wanted to reset it, I uninstalled everything except for PowerStrip or somthing like that, and I used that to set it to 600 and 400, but the problem is, it wont stay. Everytime I do that, the screen goes black and it is set to 594 and 396. This is causing alot of problems. In Counter-strike my ping goes from like 24 to 120 or something similar, just randomly. I tried another computer with a way lower gfx card, and the ping is fine, so its not my internet. I also noticed when I pinged up to 120's, it always skipped a little in CS and dropped some FPS... it was always 100FPS constant in CS, now its not. Even my other computer with way less specs is 100FPS constant. CS is a very low-end game compared to games like BF2142 or something high-end, so it should be very easy to get 100FPS all the time. So I think its something with the MHZ. Is there anyway to like reset it? I tried resetting BIOS, resetting "factory defaults" and I even reformatted, because I was bored too, so I thought that might help lol. I reinstalled the drivers.. everything. I don't know what is wrong. If you can help with any of that.. it would be great. Hehe, thats all I can think about right now, thanks a lot.

By the way, do you have some kind of AIM or MSN messenger program I can talk to you with? That would be alot easier. Thanks.
 
The problem is that AGP support is iffy. Any new AGP cards use PCIe native graphics chips with a PCIe to AGP bridge. These bridges can cause conflicts. Unlike many motherboards you'll find sporting AGP and PCIe x16 slots, that ASrock PT880 one you linked has native AGP and PCIe support. It also affords you the support of DDR with the option to switch over to DDR2 later on.

I really would shy away from AGP only these days. The video card industry is pretty much all aboard PCIe except for some token AGP versions. IMO, it's a very bad corner to paint yourself in simply for upgrades. There's a massive shift in the DX10 graphics card category, and it could be the place where ATi and nVidia tell AGP stragglers to piss off. PCIe can provide more power from the start than AGP can, plus the aforementioned problematic AGP-to-PCIe bridge chips. Your choice, but it's not recommended. Nor is sticking with your current power supply...at least if you're still intent on getting an 8800.

With your ATi card, try snagging the 7.3 or the brand-spankin' new 7.4 Catalyst drivers on AMD's ATi site.

I know ATi had some problems with the original Counter-Strike, from the Radeon 9800 line. I'm not sure if that was ever resolved or not. I don't know of any issues with the newer Source-based CS, although the Source engine is pretty flexible in graphics support. The X1650 line isn't that impressive. The exception is the X1650XT, which is the first mid-range ATi card with some balls. If I really wanted a major gaming card, I'd have got something else besides the X1650 for my second box...

There's no indication that ATi's DX10 Radeon series will be any less of a power monster than the 8800's will be.

What kind of budget are we looking at? I'm not sure that was ever established...
 
Well right now I have about 400 to 500$ max. What do you think I should do with it? Save up till 860$ and get those 4 items I posted at the very beginning of the thread? And then save up again for the power supply too? I dont really know.. I just wanted to get that ASrock motherboard because then I can just get the motherboard + CPU then use my current ATI AGP one, then when I get more money, get a PCI-e card, like the 8800. Plus it could support DDR ram. But I dont know, if you think the motherboard isnt going to be worth it and I should just save up to get everything good, or anything else.. I dont really know haha. Anything you think would be best.

Also that powersupply would be like another 100 right? So I would have to save around 1000$ right? lol so much money.


Oh also, just a little off-topic, I got Vista to work on the current computer, no upgrades on it yet, it seems like the ATI agp 512mb x1650 I was using was screwing up, so I replaced it with some older x850 ATI 256mb agp, and then installed window, then installed the new ATI software/drivers and then plugged in my 1650 back and it works fine now.
 
Vista is a bit temperamental with drivers right now, so it's not an entire shock.

If you have to upgrade now, that ASrock board is your best bet, otherwise, you'd be better off to just save up. I'd use Newegg as you'll be able to save quite a bit buying from them as opposed to buying your stuff off Fry's.

Motherboard: MSI P6N-F1 $108.99
CPU: Core 2 Duo E6300 $185.00
RAM: Patriot PC6400 2x512MB $84.99 (before $20.00 mail-in-rebate)
Video card: PNY GeForce 8800GTS 320MB $269.99 (before $20.00 MIR)
PSU: OCZ GameXStreme 600 $129.99 (before $10.00 MIR)

Total: $778.96 (excluding shipping and before rebates)
Tax applies for CA and NJ residents only.

If you don't plan on doing an SLI setup, there's some cheaper motherboards that will do the job too.
 
I think I might go with the ASrock because I want to keep this ATI one for a while, then later maybe get a 8800 or some other newer card with DX10 support/enabled. But I was wondering about the CPU's... the E6300 and 6400, the 1.83/2.13, I see that both of them are 2MB cache, but the E6600 is 2.4 and it has 4MB cache. I dont know if 2MB cache would be alot better, but I'm thinking it is... maybe I should get the E6600 with ASrock, that would only be like 360$, without tax, and I would have 2MB more of cache.

Also, if you think the E6600 wouldnt be good, what about the e6300? Could I overclock that without buying like extra fans or anything? I dont really know much about overclocking except that I can do it thro BIOS. I dont want it to like burn or something lol, but I wonder if it would be better than 6400/6600 when overclocked.

Also those links to newegg, those come with some kind of fan right? So I wouldnt need to buy fans for the cpu or motherboard or anything right?

One more thing, is the ASRock actually PCI-e 16x and AGP x8? Its not like some lower kind of PCIe or AGP or something? It would be good right?

Also, would I really need that power supply if I just got the ASrock and P6300/6400/6600 CPU? Thanks alot for the help, youve been really nice.



EDIT:
I just chose all of this, do you think its good? I based it off your items, but added a lower power supply because I only need about 35, the card only requires 26, so that 35 should be good enough.

Newegg.com - PNY VCG88GTS32XPB GeForce 8800GTS 320MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Video Card - Retail

Newegg.com - APEVIA ATX-AS520W SILVER ATX 520W Power Supply 103-132VAC or 206-264VAC RMS switch selectable CB IEC 950/ TUV EN 60950/ UL 1950/ CSA 950 - Retail

Newegg.com - Patriot eXtreme Performance 1GB (2 x 512MB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

Newegg.com - MSI P6N SLI-FI LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Conroe 1.86GHz 2M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail
All together its $775.10, shipping/tax. Plus with the rebates thats about 55$ off, so about 720$.

But I have 1 question for the ram, since its DDR2, is that 1GB of ram going to be alot faster than the current 3GB of ram I have right now? Mine right now is DDR, so like 3GB of the current DDR I have would be less than the DDR2 right? Thanks.
 
Oh, stay the hell away from Apevia, they're one of the worst brands you could buy. Do not skimp on the power supply, as that's the worst thing to do. Get a slower CPU, a slower video card, a cheaper motherboard...whatever, just don't go cheap on the PSU. I don't think you're going to find much of a selection under $100 that's a quality build above 500W. There's no good 500W+ PSU under about $85. The two that would fit the bill are the Enermax EG565P-VE (which I run one in my main box) and the Antec TPII-550.

From the Power supply sticky in the PSU forum:

Brands we recommend:
-Enermax (except for the Liberty series---high failure rate)
-Antec
-Fortron (FSP Group brand)
-Hiper (easy to get a hold of in the UK)
-OCZ
-PC Power & Cooling (for those who want the best money can buy)
-Seasonic (very quite)
-Silverstone
-Sparkle (FSP Group brand)
-Tagan
-Thermaltake Purepower (for Socket A/Northwood P4s) or Toughpower (A64, Prescott, Core2)
-Ultra (except X-Connect)
-XClio (rebadged Channelwell, like some Antec units)
-Zippy/Emacs

Of course, there's a few brands you want to avoid like hell, and here they are:

-Apevia (formerly Aspire)
-Coolmax
-Enermax Liberty series (only the Liberty series)
-Logisys
-MGE
-NZXT
-Powmax
-Q-Tec (also, Q-Technology)
-Ultra X-Connect
-Anything that comes bundled in a case

Apevia, Powmax and Q-tec are probably the crappiest of crap that you can buy.

As far as that ASrock board goes, it uses the VIA PT880 Ultra, which natively supports AGP and PCIe. Outside of that, you might stumble across a ULi chipset-based board that has AGP and PCIe like that PT880 Ultra, but since nVidia bought out ULi, support might be SOL for you.

While the DDR2 chips are made to go to higher speeds than DDR, 3GB is going to trump 1GB in performance. 1GB is what I'd start with, but that's something you can upgrade to later.

Now, since the ASrock board is on the table, know that if a board can support two different memory types, it does not do this simultaneously, so you can use one or the other, but not both.
 
Ok, then what about these four items...

Newegg.com - PNY VCG88GTS32XPB GeForce 8800GTS 320MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Video Card - Retail

Newegg.com - ENERMAX Whisper II EG565P-VE FMA(24P) ATX12V Ver 2.0 535W Power Supply 115/230 V UL, cUL, TUV, CB - Retail

Newegg.com - ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA LGA 775 VIA PT880 Ultra ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Conroe 1.86GHz 2M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

All with shipping and tax: 655$. I will have exactly 800$ on april 25th, so I might want to get something better... but I dont know what. But the MB is the only one I found with DDR400 RAM (or DDR1, whatever its called) Core2Duo compatibility, and PCI-e slot. So if you can find something better than it, tell me please.

Also.. I dont understand the "native" thing with the PCI-e slot... does that mean the 8800 I will get will not preform as good as it would on the other mb you linked me to because that mb isnt native or something?

I chose that motherboard because that way I can save some money so I dont buy any more RAM + have 2gb instead of 1gb. If you can find a better motherboard with it supporting... core2duo, ddr400, pci-e, please link me.

Also a little question about overclocking, would that MB + CPU be good for overclocking? I believe that CPU comes with a heatsink and fan right? So can I overclock it to like 2.4 or something without buying any extra fans or anything? Like whats the max I can overclock it without buying anything and keeping a good, low temp? Or can I even do it with the MB? Is the MB compatible with overclocking? Thanks.
 
When I say native, I mean that it's not a half-ass implementation, typical of most motherboards with backwards compatibility. The chipset on the motherboard provides both a full PCIe x16 slot with all the lanes required plus a full-speed true AGP slot. Most motherboards with PCIe and AGP have a hacked AGP slot that feeds into the PCI bus, which really kills your shot at gaming.

I don't know how well that chipset does at overclocking, since it's not used much. In fact, this is the only motherboard I'm aware of that uses the PT880 Ultra. Any motherboard can be overclocked, but it depends on what options you're given in regards to this.

If you have to stick with DDR, you're going to be limited on what boards to pick out, as most niche boards that you're looking at aren't aimed at overclocking, but enabling people to upgrade as cheaply and with as few parts as possible.
 
Oh ok, so the motherboard's PCIe is just like any other motherboard PCIe. I understand now.

Anyways, I'm not into overclocking anymore because my ATI x1650 is screwed so much now so I'm really pissed off for overclocking, and the new processor Im gonna get is the new e640 or something like that, it is 2.13ghz with 4Mb cache, the brand new one, just came out like Thursday, I'm at my dads so I don't have access to the Shopping Cart on Newegg, but yeah, that processor is going to be really good.

But what is worrying me is the Motherboard's RAM limit. Its only 2GB ram. I want it at least like 4GB, that should be fine for a really long time, but 2GB wont be that good. I cant find any motherboard's on Newegg with these kind of requirements:

DDR Ram
Core2duo compatibility
PCI-e x16 slot

Anything I find is like DDR Ram, PCI-e, but then the processor only can support like Pent 4, or something like PCI-e, processor, but then RAM is DDR2. Can you please link me to any kind of motherboard with those requirements I posted? It doesn't HAVE to be Newegg, but it would be better since shipping and tax would be together.
 
So far, the only one that meets that set of requirements besides the ASrock board is this Biostar PT88P-A7C. However, that uses the PT880 chipset, and is subject to the same 2GB limitation that the ASrock board is. You're looking at a very niche requirement, and there's simply a limit to what you'll be able to get given the CPU requirements versus the memory requirements.

You'll either have to hold off a little longer and snag DDR2 or go DDR1 and be capped at 2GB.
 
I took out all of my computers stuff about 3 days ago, so I couldn't post back for a while, I'm on a friends computer. UPS is pissing me off because they need someone to sign for the box, and I haven't been home whenever they have come so its been pissing me off lol. Anyways... I should be getting it tomorrow, I'm gonna stay home. I'm just worried about the LED Case connecting. I don't really know much about them at all, luckily my wires are labeled, I'm just hoping that MB is labeled too, ha ha.

Ive also heard from some friends that I should be careful when putting in the MB because if any kind of energy/electricity is flowing threw the MB and I put in the CPU, it could fry it... they told me to take it to Frys or something, but I really want to learn to do it myself. Ive been thinking of using some wooden chairs and gloves or something to reduce static from the rug. Do you have any info on that kind of stuff? Thanks a lot.
 
Emojeff said:
. they told me to take it to Frys or something, but I really want to learn to do it myself. Ive been thinking of using some wooden chairs and gloves or something to reduce static from the rug. Do you have any info on that kind of stuff? Thanks a lot.
Click to expand...
Its called static energy and ya it will be very risky for you if you have static energy in your body and you touch the CPU..... You can use static band to avoid that or if you dont wanna invest in smthing then touch the case metal oftenly after couple of seconds to transfer that energy.. ;)
 
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