Planning for new gaming PC - advice needed

[Wouter]

Well, last time I didn't go forward with my purchase after all, and decided to upgrade instead. Today I'm kind of glad I did... but my current box won't last much longer than another year I'm afraid.

This machine will be mainly, and purely, a gaming machine. Since I will get nearly nothing in return for my current machine, and it still works great, I'm going to continue to use Linux on it and use it as my "work/serious" PC.

I am looking at a complete system + accessoires (LCD screen, sound card, boxes, ...). Today this means I am looking at a system of about/over €2000.

The games I play the *most* are adventure games. Dreamfall, Secret Files Tunguska, Broken Sword IV, ... these are the types of games I play and enjoy the most, they make up the largest part of my collection. Next are RPG's, in the style of Oblivion, Gothic 3, etc. Also I like Indie Games like Laxius Power series, where specs aren't really important.

Other genres I enjoy are strategy games, stealth games (such as Splinter Cell), and online RPG's such as guild wars (I have a Guild Wars account and I *might* check out Age of Conan).

I would prefer not to upgrade to Vista for the time being. I am uncomfortable with its new EULA/licensing terms, and with installing Linux on my other box I can transfer my XP license to my new system, saving some money.

It will have to have possibility for lots of future expansions. The case has to look good too. I'd rather spend a little more money now in order to have an easier time upgrading later.

As for brands:

- the graphics card has to be nVidia, a single powerful card with the option of adding a future card in SLI mode. Meaning: SLI-capable motherboard as well, and a heavy PSU.

- I am partial to AMD, but if Intel gets me more "bang for the buck" then it's no problem going Intel. Processor has to be dual-core, since my type of computer usage is such that I could really benefit from a dual core system. Not sure if I really need 64-bit, but I hear it's the way of the future?

- Motherboard: no preference

- Case: has to be very roomy, but preferrably not a "monster"... does have to have a clean layout, lots of room for expansion, and be relatively cool&quiet. I am partial to some of the cases of Coolermaster, especially the Coolermaster Wavemaster, but I worry if it will not get too hot e.g. when putting in another card in SLI.

- Ram: no preference, 2GB of Ram... I read low-latency RAM is great, but I'm not sure if I need that for the types of games I'm most likely to play. Perhaps this is a part I could save some money on (by not picking the *very* best)

- Hard drive: was thinking, of using a 36GB WD Raptor as a system drive, and a 250-400GB harddrive with 7200rpm and 16mb as a "data/games" drive

- DVD-writer: thinking about getting a Lightscribe DVD re/writer. Lightscribe not a necessity though/

- Sound card: want to get a Creative X-Fi Xtreme music, but I noticed most shops do not sell it any longer, they start with the "Platinum" or "Fatality" edition instead

- Boxes: 5.1/7.1 surround boxes. Cables would be an annoyance, so the Logitech Z-5450 Wireless boxes look pretty good. Maybe headphones an option?

- LCD screen: Most of my games (including adventure games) would benefit from a big screen. Right now I have a 19" screen (a crappy one I'm afraid), but I think a nice 21" screen will be perfect for my intended use. With native resolution either 1600*1200 or above. Of course the entire system would have to be capable of running games at this resolution (at full details, and the most demanding games at 1280*1024 Full Details).

- Power Supply: has to be able to support all kinds of future expansions.

- Cooling: actually, I have no idea... other than that I want a pretty silent and cool box (sound & heat barely noticeable).


---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

What I have got up to now:

Case
Coolermaster TAC-T01 Wavemaster Case Yellow €140,95
PSU
OCZ GameXStream SLI/Active 700W €137,95
Motherboard
MSI AMD AM2 K9N SLI-2F €97,50
Processor
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ BOX (SAM2) €187,00
Ram
Corsair 2048MB DDR2 6400PRO Matched pair CL4 €399,00
Disk
WD 74GB Raptor SATA 16Mb WD740ADFD €151,95
Samsung 400gb sata II 16mb €149,50
1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive Zwart €12,50
Samsung SH-S182M LightScibe Zwart Bulk €32,50
Sound
Creative SB X-FI Platinum €157
Logitech Z-5450 Wireless boxes €287

Video
XFX MSI 640Mb 8800GTS PCI-E €445
Samsung SyncMaster 225BW €414
Cooling
??


I'm considering waiting 6 months for prices to come down, and be able to pick up a system similar to this (minus LCD screen and boxes) for about €2000. And then pick up some of the top games of today (e.g. Gothic 3) out of the garbage bin.


I would appreciate any advice people can give me.

The most important aspects I'm looking for:
- can run about anything at least at a resolution of 1280*1024
- great sound
- big screen with no noticeable ghosting or other artifacts
- upgradable (room for expansion, 'durable' components e.g. 700W PSU)
- relatively cool & silent
- case looks good and isn't a "monster" size
- around €2000 (minus LCD and boxes)

 

[Big B]

For the Athlon 64, timings don't matter quite as much, so I probably wouldn't pay out the nose for ultra-low timings. Also, having a higher speed grade of RAM should allow you to run tighter timings at a lower speed.

The whole setup looks nice so far. OCZ is a great choice for PSU's, so while there's other excellent brands, I don't see a good reason to recommend something else.

Video card: obviously, the GeForce 8800's are the best out there. However, right now, for what you want a GeForce 7900GS or Radeon X1950Pro will allow you to do 1280x1024 quite comfortably, and even 1600x1200 in some cases. Now, Oblivion is a sole exception because if set right, you can have it make SLI and Crossfire setups cry. I can do 1600x1200 in FEAR with an average FPS in the 50's with a 7900GS.

Of course, feel free to go with something faster, but given your budget, this would be where I'd start.

Core 2 Duo really packs a wallop, and if you check out reviews, you'll see it's low-end E6300 and E6400 bring it to the FX-60. AMD has slashed prices on the FX-55 recently. It was inevitable, but the FX line is the top-end from AMD, and that's where Intel is starting. I like AMD too, but right now, Intel has taken back the performance crown with the C2D.

 

[Wouter]

First, thanks for your reply.

For the Athlon 64, timings don't matter quite as much, so I probably wouldn't pay out the nose for ultra-low timings. Also, having a higher speed grade of RAM should allow you to run tighter timings at a lower speed.

So which processor would you recommend instead?

The whole setup looks nice so far. OCZ is a great choice for PSU's, so while there's other excellent brands, I don't see a good reason to recommend something else.

Thanks. I have an Enermax currently (320W - runs with no problems, in contrast to my late 'no-name' 350W PSU), and it is very nice too, although a bit noisy in my current setup...

Video card: obviously, the GeForce 8800's are the best out there. However, right now, for what you want a GeForce 7900GS or Radeon X1950Pro will allow you to do 1280x1024 quite comfortably, and even 1600x1200 in some cases.

Well, I'm looking to buy this system in about 6 months time, so I'm kind of hoping that, by then, the price for a 8800GS has come down a lot, and still packs a wallop (false hope maybe?).

Now, Oblivion is a sole exception because if set right, you can have it make SLI and Crossfire setups cry.

Well, I currently have a XFX 6600GT 256MB and I can run Oblivion at 1280*960 at medium/high settings with object/grass distance etc. quite high. Which surprised me because everyone was/is complaining how it runs so slow on their sooper-dooper hardware... somehow 1280*960 seems to be some kind of "sweet spot" for my current setup.

I can do 1600x1200 in FEAR with an average FPS in the 50's with a 7900GS.

I don't play First Person Shooters. So if those are the top-of-the-line games (and I'm guessing they are) probably the next-best card is still plenty good for me.

Of course, feel free to go with something faster, but given your budget, this would be where I'd start.

I believe that where I live, 7900GT isn't much more expensive than 7900GS... (or maybe that was just at launch?)

Core 2 Duo really packs a wallop, and if you check out reviews, you'll see it's low-end E6300 and E6400 bring it to the FX-60. AMD has slashed prices on the FX-55 recently. It was inevitable, but the FX line is the top-end from AMD, and that's where Intel is starting. I like AMD too, but right now, Intel has taken back the performance crown with the C2D.

So again, which processors are good?

And what about the heat&cooling, and room for expansion? Will this setup be cool enough by its own, or do I need extra fans or ... ?

 

[Wouter]

About the processor:
this one is a little bit cheaper than the AMD X2 4200+ I chose above:

- Intel Core 2 Duo Allendale E6300 1,86GHz 2Mb 775 €187

So you're saying this is a cheaper, and better, processor than the X2 4200+?

 

[Big B]

The Core 2 Duo starts out with the E6300, followed by the E6400, E6600, E6700 and then goes to the X6800, which includes a hefty price jump. I think you'll find the E6400 or E6600 to be in best price:performance ratio. The X line is the Extreme versions with extra cache and a hefty price jump. The Core 2's run pretty cool, and AMD isn't having heat issues. Unless you're looking for a custom cooling solution, then the stock cooling (I'm assuming you'll purchase the retail CPU's) that comes with retail CPUs will be fine. If you would intend to overclock, then you should consider something a little heftier. Same thing if you're looking for quiet.

If you're interested in quiet computing, you may want to check out a PSU by Seasonic. Their S12 and M12 (the M's are modular variants of the S-series) are quiet. I haven't had one, but from what I've gathered, these are pretty quiet.

If you're not playing FPS games, in general, games outside of that genre aren't the most graphically intense. The only two non-FPS games I can think of are Oblivion and Need For Speed: Carbon, but there are probably a few others that are actually graphically intense outside FPS games.

I do think some of the complaints about Oblivion are overrated, but that would depend on the settings that affect outdoor views more. I haven't played it, but I do think that some of the reviews don't actually play the games as much as bench them and call it good.

 

[Wouter]

"Carbon, but there are probably a few others that are actually graphically intense outside FPS games."

Yeah, I liked Medieval: Total War a lot... and certainly other games outside of FPS genre will come on the market with higher requirements soon... just look at Oblivion and Gothic 3...

"If you're interested in quiet computing, you may want to check out a PSU by Seasonic."

Well, my PSU is actually pretty loud... but possibly this is because of a combination of my case (big old iron case) and the 'fan' on my PSU (or how do you call it) set at the highest position. And I don't have the nerve to open my case, so no overclocking for me x|

 

[Big B]

About the processor:
this one is a little bit cheaper than the AMD X2 4200+ I chose above:

- Intel Core 2 Duo Allendale E6300 1,86GHz 2Mb 775 €187

So you're saying this is a cheaper, and better, processor than the X2 4200+?

Yes. On both counts. I know you can't buy from there, but Newegg is listing the X2 4200+ Socket AM2 for $183 (the Socket 939 is going for $222). The E6300 is $180. Look around at reviews by Anandtech, [H]ard|OCP, the Tech Report...Core 2 is nothing like the performance of the Pentium 4. It's a completely different design, and probably closer in spirit to the Pentium 3's than the P4's.

 

[Wouter]

"It's a completely different design, and probably closer in spirit to the Pentium 3's than the P4's."

Now that's a funny thing to say... hmm, Pentium III...

But if I can buy a processor better and cheaper than the one I planned, why the heck not? :)

Also, do you think it is useful to wait for a few more months or not? I really *do* want a really nice game system, but I can wait a little for it.

I upgraded but I regret a little I did... I hoped to gain a little extra use out of my current computer for gaming, by upgrading it slightly, but it seems like I would've been better off if I had just gotten a completely new system and upgraded some core parts after 3-4 years. That's why things like case, PSU, RAM, motherboard, ... are very important to me. When upgrading, I would like to replace as little of them as possible. For example put in a new processor and a new/extra (SLI) graphics card without a change of case and PSU and/or motherboard.

 

[mut]

Go for it now, in my opinion. If you decide to "wait" for something, by the time it comes out there will be something else to wait for.
Computer technology moves so quickly that there is always something new and improved coming out.

 

[Wouter]

Here's my new configuration, after reading the advice. Since they're such an expensive part of the system, I put the boxes and screen in a seperate section.

Case
- Coolermaster TAC-T01 Wavemaster Case Yellow €140,95

PSU
- OCZ GameXStream SLI/Active 700W €137,95

Processor
- Intel Core 2 Duo Allendale E6400 2,13GHz 2Mb 775 €217,50

Motherboard
- Asus P5NSLI €104,95

Memory
- Corsair 2048MB DDR2 Matched Pair PC6400 CL5 €345,00

Disk
- WD Raptor 36GB 16MB SATA WD360ADFD (system drive) €104,95
- Samsung 400gb sata II 16mb €149,50
- Samsung SH-S182M LightScibe Zwart Bulk €32,50
- 1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive Black €12,50

Sound
- Creative SB X-FI Platinum €156,95
- Speakers: see below

Video
- XFX 256Mb 7900GS PCI-E €168,50
- Screen: see below

Sub-Total (no screen, no speakers): €1.571,25


Speakers
- Logitech Z-5450 Wireless €286,95

Screen
- Samsung 20" 205BW €306,95


Total: €2165,15

 

[Big B]

There's always something bigger and better around the corner, so while, yes prices drop, I don't foresee any major cuts for awhile. AMD will be making changes sure, but it's a little early to tell if they've got a revolutionary new CPU that will bump off Core 2.

 

[Wouter]

There's always something bigger and better around the corner, so while, yes prices drop, I don't foresee any major cuts for awhile.

AMD will be making changes sure, but it's a little early to tell if they've got a revolutionary new CPU that will bump off Core 2.

... especially at a competitive price. Dunno but €170-€200 for a really powerful CPU doesn't seem all that much for me. My friend reminded me some time ago that, in the 'old' days, when he bought a video card with 4MB (8MB) of RAM it cost €300... times sure change... :)

Anyhow, I don't care about "bigger and better" now, or tomorrow, I care the most about being able to upgrade to something that will run the games of that time without much problems. But if that means I'm obliged to upgrade just about *everything*, then I could just buy a plain case with a weak(er) PSU...

 

[Wouter]

What about the motherboard? Is it a good choice?

In a computer magazine, I read they recommended the "Asus P5N32-SLI Premium Wifi" motherboard, also with future upgrades in mind. Of course, *they* were building a killer system... best among the best (their system was over > €3000).

 

[Big B]

If your not planning or at least wanting the SLI option, then no. I really haven't seen any reviews on that board, so I don't know. Typically, Asus is pretty good (save their slow-ass website), but I read around a little. The the nForce 680i motherboards might be an option if they're available to you. However, they are high-end chipsets, much like the i975X. There's no motherboard that has no problems. Reading up on it around the web will give you a feel for what are the major issues, how the board acts and what components work best with it. Specifically, I'm talking about the RAM, but there may be some other issues you'll want to be familiar with. This is with any board, not just because I'm unsure.

 

[Wouter]

Yes, it seems like that more expensive Asus board is a better pick for me anyway, since the other one 'only' supports DDR2 Ram up to speeds of 667Mhz, and I want to pick Ram with a higher speed (800Mhz), either now or later.

That's at least one catch I found. Plus it has integrated WIFI, which is always nice, since I'm running a Wireless home network.

 

[Wouter]

The specs for the motherboard say:
"Dual channel memory architecture
4 x DIMM, max. 8GB, DDR2-800(OC)/667/533, non-ECC, un-buffered memory"

Does that mean I have to pick RAM that conforms to those speeds (800/667/533), or can I also pick other types such as PC5400 675 MHz Ram?

 

[Willz]

Wouter, dont get the Logitech Z5450 Wireless, get the Logitech Z5500, its alot more powerfull, cheaper, and the Z5450 is only more money coz of the wireless rear speakers which in my opinion are useless since you need to use 2 extra plug sockets..., i see 2 wireless rear speakers more of an annoyance since it takes up 2 extra plug sockets, but if space is an issue, z5450 or z5500 wont be an option since they have quite large subwoofers for computer systems, and when i say large i mean bigger than the normal subs you get in 5.1 all in one home theatres.

the Z5500 has plenty long enough speaker cable for the rears, depends on the size of your room, i dont like wire clutter form the speakers too, simply put the wires under the carpet, but if you dont have carped, maybe you can lift the laminate flooring or w/e you have and place them under, its deffenitly worth it and outweight the needs of wireless rears, i got vid on youtube showing the power of this speaker system, but i dont know if you want power?

8800GTS is awsome man :good:, i think it would be quite silly to get a 7900GS or something, as the 8800GTS/GTX have future compatability, and as more games come out, the tougher they are to run on even 7900 series cards, and the 8800GTS/GTX will easilly run them on the highest settings, but then again it may be silly to buy the 8800 Series cards as soon they may be an even better card or something..

If you get an 8800GTS, you deffenitly will not need SLi yet lol, unless you want it for bragging rights :p

Concerning the ram, i think that the 675Mhz ram will be ok, it will proberbly run at the nearest compatible speed which is 667.

 

[Wouter]

Thanks for the reply, but I am going to forgo the speakers and sound card for now. The motherboard I picked has pretty good 8-channel audio. A SoundBlaster and good 5.1 surround boxes, will be on my wishlist for upgrades (plus then I know what to ask for for my birthday :p). Maybe headphones or 2.1 boxes would be a good solution in the meantime. My current boxes are crappy, and I don't even have a subwoofer...

I'm going to think a bit more about the graphics card, but it's becoming more clear to me what to pick for the rest of the system.

Wouter, dont get the Logitech Z5450 Wireless, get the Logitech Z5500, its alot more powerfull, cheaper, and the Z5450 is only more money coz of the wireless rear speakers which in my opinion are useless since you need to use 2 extra plug sockets..., i see 2 wireless rear speakers more of an annoyance since it takes up 2 extra plug sockets, but if space is an issue, z5450 or z5500 wont be an option since they have quite large subwoofers for computer systems, and when i say large i mean bigger than the normal subs you get in 5.1 all in one home theatres.
8800GTS is awsome man :good:

 

[Willz]

Ah, ok, Headphones might be better, no complaints from the neighbours:P

So what graphics card you gonna get?

 

[Wouter]

Willz, probably I'm going to get a plain-old, boring 256MB 7900GS :p
Well, I might got for something else if the prices come down, after
all this computer isn't for *immediate* purchase (somewhere at the start of 2007 I reckon) so I'll see... I want an nvidia card basically, best value for money I can get, but it should actually be able to run most games (also current ones such as Medieval 2 or Dark Messiah of Might and Magic) fluently... SLI is for when I need more graphics power in the future... so maybe it's even an advantage if I don't buy the best-best card right now (less remorse to throw it away, and by the time I need SLI the card should be dirt-cheap...).

Here's my adapted system:

OCZ GameXStream SLI/Active 700W €137,95
Coolermaster TAC-T01 Wavemaster Case Yellow €140,95
Intel Core 2 Duo Allendale E6400 2,13GHz 2Mb 775 €217,50
Asus P5N32-SLI Premium Wifi €214,50
Kingston HyperX 2048MB DDR2 Matched Pair PC6000 €278,00
WD Raptor 36GB 16MB SATA WD360ADFD €104,95
Samsung 400gb sata II 16mb €149,50
Samsung SH-S182M LightScibe Zwart Bulk €32,50
1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive Zwart €12,50
XFX 256Mb 7900GS PCI-E €168,50
Logitech X-530 €61,95

Total: €1.556,30

I was concerned about having enough room for the Logitech speakers, but I took a look at some pictures and they're compact enough to fit most of them on my desk, except for the rear speaker. And price for them is pretty cheap.

Now I only need to consider if I need extra hardware for cooling and noise reduction...

Also my no-brand LCD (19" Medion... whatever that is) might turn out not to be so crappy at all... probably not the LCD's fault Splinter Cell Chaos Theory looked so awful sometimes then ...

Also, I'm not sure if the RAM I picked will fit the motherboard...