troubleshooting question about upgrading RAM

S

slipkid

Geek Trainee
I'd like to ask perhaps a general question about a problem I just had after trying to upgrade RAM in my old PC. This may sound specific to my PC but I am wondering about it in a general sense as far as RAM upgrades go.

After I removed existing RAM from one of the SIMM banks and replaced it with the new RAM, the PC booted up fine showing the proper new RAM totals, BUT as soon as I got into WINDOZE (98SE) the PC hung.

I then tried rebooting into safe mode, to try to diagnose what was wrong, thinking perhaps there may be some kind of software/hardware conflict with the new ram (how could that be?), but found that when I ran SYSINFO the PC then went crazy!!! First got a bunch of error msgs, then it just shut itself down !! Rebooting again into safe mode I had similar problems.

Taking the new RAM out and replacing with the old RAM all is fine again.

I'm wondering if perhaps the problem is just that the new RAM is bad??? Could that be it? Or something not 100% compatible about it and this PC?? BUT WHAT???


BTW, this is an old Pentium IImmx, 266mHZ, had 128mb RAM, takes 72 pin EDO DRAM 50 or 60ns refresh rate, and that is what i tried to upgrade to (replaced a SIMM bank that had 64mb with the 2 new RAM SIMMS that are 128mb total instead). And when I say "new RAM" that ain't exactly true - they are new to me but came from a different PC which "supposedly" was fine.

THANKS FOR ANY CLUES/OPINIONS/SUGGESTIONS.
 
I don't know that much but I'm a bit curious...

What were your old ram and new ram specs?
size/speed

are both old ones the same and both new ones the same?
 
harakim said:
I don't know that much but I'm a bit curious...

What were your old ram and new ram specs?
size/speed

are both old ones the same and both new ones the same?
Click to expand...


- the 2 SIMMS that i took out were:
32mb each, 60ns, EDO, "with parity"
that is all that i know about them


- the 2 SIMMS that i replaced them with were:
64mb each, 50ns, EDO, not sure if had "parity" or not
(dunno why should that even matter?)

the PC has only 2 banks available for 2 pairs of SIMMS each, and in the other bank are two 32mb SIMMS

each pair has to consist of identical SIMMS in each pair, but the pairs of SIMMS can be of different sizes

and the only other info given in the PC motherboard documentation is that the SIMMS can be either 4, 8, 16, 32, or 64MB, each pair can be either EDO or FPM, and they can be either 50 or 60ns, as long as they match within each pair

i have bought another pair of 64mb SIMMS as well (which haven't arrived yet) & was hoping that replacing all the SIMMS i could double the RAM to a whopping 256mb from the current 128mb (that sounds awfully silly to say that with the PCs available these days i know...but i am trying to work with what i have)


hmm...this is the "spec sheet" for the new 64mb SIMMS!
http://www.micron.com/products/dram/edofpm/part.aspx?part=MT4LC16M4G3TG-5
http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/dram/D22_2.pdf

double hmmm....the spec sheet says "4,096-cycle CAS#-before-RAS# (CBR) REFRESH distributed across 64ms"

i don't actually understand what that means in technical terms BUT i do recall reading somewheres that this 4k refresh rate may only work with certain motherboard chipsets?? and i think that came along AFTER this PC was built (???)

so maybe this motherboard may not work with SIMMS of this refresh rate? that could be what is going on - but if so, i wonder why the PC booted up at all? the count at bootup didn't show any errors, it didn't screw up until WINDOZE started running


thanks for your interest in my question - any guess/clues appreciated! although i now am leaning towards the "refresh rate" being the culprit
 
I'm having the same problem, that's why I asked. I have an ibm with 2 sticks of 32mb ram, but i replaced them with sticks that were exactly the same except 64mb ram.

Apparently, some motherboards autodetect how much ram is in each slot while other ones you have to set. For me, I need a disk or something, but I have heard it can be done in the CMOS or BIOS.

Sorry I can't help, but that's what I've learned.
 
harakim said:
I'm having the same problem, that's why I asked. I have an ibm with 2 sticks of 32mb ram, but i replaced them with sticks that were exactly the same except 64mb ram.

Apparently, some motherboards autodetect how much ram is in each slot while other ones you have to set. For me, I need a disk or something, but I have heard it can be done in the CMOS or BIOS.
Click to expand...

when you startup your PC with the new RAM does it countup & show the new RAM? or does it ignore it?

i 99% sure the BIOS on my PC autodetects the RAM situation, it counted up to the new amount, and after the problems in WINDOZE when i removed the new ram and booted up again with the old RAM (64mb less), the PC recognized that it had less RAM than the previous bootup and even stopped to tell me that, showed exactly how much RAM had been reduced, etc

does your do anything like that?
 
I'm pretty sure all motherboards within the past 10-15 years all autodetect RAM. If you're not getting the correct amount, then you've got a stick with less RAM than you paid for, a bad stick, or an incorrectly inserted stick. I've never heard of people having to insert the amount of RAM into BIOS...and quite honestly, whoever told you that is making it up or misunderstanding something.
 
Well, believe it or not, RAM can be a very sensitive component. There are all kinds of problems that can happen with various incompatabilities and bad sticks and the like. I would say there is a fair chance that the original RAM is proprietary and can only be replaced with exactly the same kind, or a higher capacity by the same manufacturer.
 
max12590 said:
Well, believe it or not, RAM can be a very sensitive component. There are all kinds of problems that can happen with various incompatabilities and bad sticks and the like. I would say there is a fair chance that the original RAM is proprietary and can only be replaced with exactly the same kind, or a higher capacity by the same manufacturer.
Click to expand...

thanks for your input

more to my "story" and some other questions

my PC is an old "GATEWAY2000". a G6-266 - not sure what motherboard or RAM they used - i bought it new at the time (1997) with only 64mb ram and when i went to add ram a year or so later (another 64mb) i discovered that GATEWAY had *changed* the model of my PC (G6-266) so that the new model didn't use EDO RAMM anymore; i 4get the exact situation but it led to alot of confusion for me when trying to upgrade my existing RAM but the existing "documentation" out there at GATEWAY and vendors for my model was WRONG as pertaining to what i need to get, but eventually i was able to figure that out

anyways.......some other questions....

when i originally added two 32mb SIMMS, to get up to 128 total RAM, i didn't buy them from GATEWAY...got them from a company which doesn't seem to exist anymore...but all i knew when i bought them was "60ns, 72 pin, EDO, w/parity, tin contacts"

and they worked fine, took me from 64mb to 128mb

and they definitely are NOT the same as the other 64mb RAM that my PC came with - they look TOTALLY different - so i don't think this PC can only take one kind of manufactured RAM

and now, taking those out, and trying the two 64mb SIMMs instead that i recently bought off ebay, my PC goes crazy in WINDOZE (but it counts up ok
in bootup)

i had bid on other RAM as well (trying to get the PC all the way up to 256mb), but just lost on that other auction, and see some other auctions to try but....now i'm wondering exactly what it is i am not knowing about what will work and what won't

and i keep coming back to this "refresh rate" thing, since i have NO IDEA what "refresh rate" my old SIMMS/motherboard supports

most of the ebay auctions, places that sell ram, don't mention the "refresh rate" at all, only say the pins, size, EDO..but i am seeing some today that say either "4k" or "8k"....and the RAM i just bought are "4k" (which didn't work either because my motherboard doesn't use that rate, or these SIMMS are just bad in some way)

also checking my old notes it seems i need to buy SIMMS with "tin" contacts, rather than "gold" ones, so i guess i need to take that into consideration too

but....i'd really like to know #1 WHAT refresh rate i need to get, *if* indeed that is a consideration - anyone know how to figure that out????? either from looking at the SIMMS i already have or my motherboard?

sheesh, why can't this stuff be ez ?!

thanks again for the comments
 
i have some info that may benefit others in the same boat as me, looking to add RAM to an old PC

i surfed around the 'net for several hours and found alot of great resources for understanding things about RAM, specs, compatibilities, what the refresh rates mean etc
http://www.sw.wednet.edu/schools/hs/hs_programs/voc/_private/ch3_memory.htm
http://www.atgig.com/karthikeyan/RAMS.htm


and the #1 place i am ECSTATIC to have found is this one:
http://www.oempcworld.com/

they have LOADS of info....the faqs are great
http://www.oempcworld.com/faq.htm

the section where dumbos like me ask questions is a godsend:
http://www.oempcworld.com/faq/index.php?action=show&cat=3

and even better yet, they sell RAM!!! and you can return/exchange modules that do not work out

they even have a free tool you can use to scan your PC and it tells you things like exactly what chipset your motherboard is, which from there you can figure out what kind of RAM is your best shot to try in an upgrade

they also have a "configurator" page where you can enter in your PC make/model & it comes back & tells you what RAM they sell that will be compatible - interesting to note though that in my PC's case, their configurator reported the WRONG THING!!! luckily i already knew about this problem since it bit me in the butt about 5 years ago (their configurator said that my gateway PC takes SDRAM, but that is incorrect, mine takes EDO, and that misinformation is GATEWAY's fault - they CHANGED the design of my motherboard to use SDRAM instead of EDO RAM a few weeks after i bought it!!! gateway introduced a whole mess of incorrect information for the G6-266 model which vendors now refer to that is FREAKING WRONG if you have an earlier "flavor" of this PC model....of course they could have avoided this whole mess if they simply changed their model #s but they didn't do that for an unfathomable reason...goddam bastards....but i digress)

as far as my particular problem about the RAM i recently bought not working for me - it's possible that this user question holds the key to the problem i am having:

<<<<<<<<<
http://www.oempcworld.com/faq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=3&id=85&artlang=en
Q: How can I tell if I should use the 4K or 2K refresh modules and can I mix them?

A: No, you should not mix the 4K and 2K modules in the same system, they refresh at different speeds and will cause your system to malfunction in many cases. In those cases you should either purchase low density 2K refresh modules or install all new 4K refresh SIMMs, we will take a trade in on your 2K refresh parts if you like.

You can tell if you have low density modules by the number of chips on the module, 8 chips on a 16MB SIMM and 16 chips on a 32MB SIMM are indications of low density 2K refresh parts. High density modules will have 1/4 (25%) of these totals since they are 4 times the density (16MB density vs 4MB density)
>>>>>>>>>

SO...

assuming that my motherboard can work with 4k refresh rate SIMMS (which i really am NOT sure of yet though), then if that is true, then it is *possible* that the problem i had was BECAUSE i put in those 4k SIMMS when i had a DIFFERENT set of refresh rate SIMMS in my other RAM bank!!!!!!!

i am going to have to take a look at the working SIMMS and see if they have "16 chips" on them, because if they do then that would reinforce this theory

i can also just take out all the SIMMS, and try putting in these new ones ONLY - and it that works then i'll know that the problem was because i had SIMMS of mixed refresh rates!!!! however if it still causes my PC to go crazy in windoze then i will know either (a) my PC cannot handle 4k refresh rates SIMMS, OR (b) these SIMMS are just "bad"

in any case - depending on what i figure out next - either i will be able to use these new SIMMS or not - and whether they work or not - i will want to buy some from OEMPCWORLD, either 128mb to work in conjunction with these new ones, OR 256mb of SIMMS to replace everything.....hoping that their website will allow me to figure out exactly what i need, or to use their money back/exchange deals to eventually (hopefully) get what i need

wish me luck!!!
 
slipkid said:
assuming that my motherboard can work with 4k refresh rate SIMMS (which i really am NOT sure of yet though), then if that is true, then it is *possible* that the problem i had was BECAUSE i put in those 4k SIMMS when i had a DIFFERENT set of refresh rate SIMMS in my other RAM bank!!!!!!!

i am going to have to take a look at the working SIMMS and see if they have "16 chips" on them, because if they do then that would reinforce this theory

i can also just take out all the SIMMS, and try putting in these new ones ONLY - and it that works then i'll know that the problem was because i had SIMMS of mixed refresh rates!!!! however if it still causes my PC to go crazy in windoze then i will know either (a) my PC cannot handle 4k refresh rates SIMMS, OR (b) these SIMMS are just "bad"
Click to expand...


holy *$&#*#

this is what happened when i removed ALL of my existing SIMMS (4 32MB ones) and tried booting up ONLY with the new "4k refresh rate 64mb" ones, which should have given me 128mb

(1) the PC counted up ONLY to 64mb!!!! i shutdown b4 going into windoze since something was obviously not kosher

(2) on the wild guess that perhaps one of the 64mb SIMMS was bad, i tried removing one of them to see if i could still boot to 64mb, then repeat the process and through that perhaps figure out which one was "bad"

however doing that, the PC would NOT BOOTUP AT ALL!!! just kept beeping

(3) i even tried this again with the other 64mb SIMM by itself

from #2 and #3 i figured that the PC will NOT accept SIMMS unless they are in pairs

(4) i tried booting again with both 64mb SIMMS - reseated in bank 0 - same problem, only counted up to 64mb

(5) i tried again, this time with both 64mb SIMMS in bank1 instead of bank 0 - same problem, the BIOS only counted up to 64mb instead of 128mb


this question at oempcworld is from someone in a similar situation, which may explain my problem
http://www.oempcworld.com/faq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=3&id=2&artlang=en

that is, that my motherboard won't work with "high density 4k refresh rate" SIMMS

however not all of that adds up

from that thread supposedly "Your system must support more than 32MB per SIMM socket or more than 128MB total RAM or use an Intel Triton 430TX chipset or later."

and according to the documentation that came with my system, my motherboard can accept up to 256mb total ram in two "16Mx36" arrangements for each SIMM bank

also, according to the "BELARC" system information scanning thing that i ran, my PC uses the intel "PD440TX" chipset, which supposedly can use 4k refresh 64mb SIMMS



also, as far as looking at my existing 32mb SIMMS and what arrangement of chips they have, to perhaps use that as evidence of not supporting "high density 4k refresh rate SIMMS", well the 2 that came with the PC have 8 chips per side for 16 total which suggests that they are "low density 2k SIMMS", yet the newer ones that i bought 5+ years ago have only 4 chips per SIMM, so that suggests they are the of the "high density" type

sheesh....

i have been able to talk (email) to someone at oempcworld & they have had some helpful things to say, but i don't have explanations for this latest test yet

i guess it is still possible that these "new" 64mb SIMMS are just bad....also that my motherboard just does not support 4k refresh rate chips....

the saga continues! (probably not even worth all this trouble though)
 
well, it looks like as far as my PC goes i cannot upgrade it above the 128mb i already have :(

from what i can understand so far anyways, the motherboard used in the original GATEWAY2000 G6-266 PCs like mine (and who knows if also other gateway models at the time, like 233, or 300mhz etc), were designed to work only with 2k refresh rate EDO SIMMS

and although my PC was SUPPOSED to be upgradeable to a total of 256mb using 64mb SIMMS in the 4 slots of the 2 memory banks, the 2k refresh rate 64mb SIMMS did not perform "fast enough" (?) so they either were never made (?) or faded fast out of existence (? can i even get these now?) and instead were replaced with 4k & higher refresh rate SIMMS which were incompatible with my motherboard - and GATEWAY *changed* the motherboards in existing models to get around this (i believe that my own model was changed less than one month after being unveiled), switching to SDRAM instead, to avoid the problem altogether!!!!

perhaps if back when i bought this if i tried to buy the PC with 64mb SIMMS GATEWAY would've held things up & given me the right motherboard, who knows

anyways, lesson learned - the "refresh rate" is a key factor when buying old EDO RAM, make sure you know what your motherboard supports & what the SIMMS are that yer buying!

if anyone knows of any sources for 2k refresh 64mb EDO 72 pin SIMMS 50 or 60ns (tin contacts rather than gold) please let me know!
 
Well, I found some RAM that appears to work. I don't know, it doesn't elaborate but it too offers the whole money back thing. Here it is.
 
slipkid said:
if anyone knows of any sources for 2k refresh 64mb EDO 72 pin SIMMS 50 or 60ns (tin contacts rather than gold) please let me know!
Click to expand...

i've searched 'round the 'net & so far have been unable to find any 64mb 2k SIMMS, and talking further with OEMPCWORLD they say that 2k refresh rate EDOs above 32mb were NEVER made!!! which would explain why i can't find 'em

also would explain why GATEWAY changed the motherboard in these PCs only a few weeks after i bought mine (to use SDRAM instead of EDO)

this shines very poorly on GATEWAY for not letting their previous customers KNOW THAT THEY WOULD BE UNABLE TO UPGRADE THEIR RAM OVER 128mb despite selling the PC/motherboard as being able to take up to 256mb in their specs!!!! goddammit this pisses me off - a decent company would have let folks like me know, and offer the SDRAM motherboard upgrades FREE OF CHARGE, or at least for a minimal charges, just LET US FREAKING KNOW AND GIVE US SOME KIND OF OPTION!!! but no, just bury it and hope no one notices? i wonder how many other people got bit by this over the years

i'll never buy anything from GATEWAY again that's for sure
 
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